nine so we're gonna go ahead and get
started
um
thank you all for coming it's a full
room there's a lot of energy in here
which is really good
um I really appreciate the passion in
the community about this uh this kind of
topics in general so I want to start off
by just acknowledging that it's a full
room when there's a lot of energy and
you know we're here we're gonna invite
people to speak right and so we want
people to be respectful and you know to
you know be behave in a professional and
respectful manner even though this is
something that again rightly so people
feel very passionately about
um so we we structured the title event
as a round table discussion
um there's a bunch of round tables and
we don't even fit around them so we have
extra microphones up here uh which I
think you know we'd invite people to
come up and use when you know when they
want to speak
um as the conveners of the event
um we can kind of start and explain you
know David and I can talk a little about
like our perspective on this this topic
and the topic broadly is you know how do
we
conduct ourselves how do we react when
people who use our software people who
use our technology don't we don't agree
with their agenda we don't we don't
share their values and at what point do
we try to draw lines and boundaries
around that sort of thing and it's a
it's a complicated question
um you know there's uh one of the things
that as a contributor to Drupal
personally had to make kind of my peace
with early on was the fact that once you
release free software people will use it
and you don't have control over how it
will be used and that's uh you know part
of the trade-off that you make when you
release something freely there's lots of
benefits to all of that but it's not all
beneficial and when we started our
company uh Pantheon we set it up
intentionally so that anyone could sign
up for it for free anyone could take
their site live at any point they wanted
to we work with a lot of agency partners
that can bring us any customer they want
at any time and we
built it around that same ethos of being
very widely and publicly available when
we were you know in the early days of
the company we intentionally structured
one restriction around that which is
which we we didn't want to do adult
content and that was kind of just more
of a question of what type of business
you want to build because you were doing
stuff on the internet you kind of either
take a fork on the road if you do or you
don't and we didn't want to build the
adult content kind of business so so we
didn't and then beyond that we really
took a broad uh uh gave our users and
customers broad license because it's
their website it's their content it's
their code they they own it like that is
the perspective that we've had so we
honor our legal obligations obviously
around like copyright other things like
that and we have taken action in the
past when there are things happening on
the platform that create a we in our
judgment a direct risk or harm so people
posting personal information people
doing like targeted harassment people
say saying hey let's go you know get
these people at this place like where
the removal of that content in it in and
of itself could potentially avert
something bad from happening directly
like our our perspective is that's
that's a that's a using Pantheon to
directly harm someone the website is is
a harmful thing and we'll take it
doesn't happen a lot but it has happened
we'll we'll take action to pull that off
but beyond that we're we're our
perspective is it's the right thing for
a big open platform to do to permit an
extremely wide array of uses and an
extremely wide array of customers even
when the conflict with our personal
beliefs very directly
um and so you know that's how we have
built our business and you know that's
how we are conducting ourselves
um and reasonable people can disagree
about whether that's the right choice or
not I don't expect everyone to share our
position on this but I also think that
reasonable people in a community can
just degree and not feel you know that
they have to become enemies
um
David I don't know if you want to add
any thoughts that I'm like sort of like
to round out the pantheon perspective
I'm trying to represent the the all of
the founder opinions as well as I can
this is a bit more my personal
perspective but um uh I grew up um in a
very conservative community and um
experienced a lot of censorship wielded
as a a cudgel against
um people in my community and
um that's I actually joined the ACLU
when I was in high school
um uh back in the 90s
um
and that was largely in response to
seeing burgeoning censorship efforts
across both public and private spaces
used as a way to
um to exclude
um and I
um I wouldn't say I made a vow at that
point but um I became fairly resolved
early on to never be a participant in
creating that sort of censorship
censorship infrastructure in the sense
of the tools that could be wielded
against people like me again in someone
else's hands because even when I can
control the um the levers to some degree
in my current position it doesn't mean
that I have control over who those
lovers get handed to and I'm very
reluctant to set up levers that are
similar to the ones that have been used
against me and my community in the past
foreign
thanks for that
um so I would like to open up the the
conversation I think at this point
um it's because it's a big room uh you
know people can they don't you don't
need to use the mics but I think it
would probably be easier for everyone to
understand one another if we did try to
use the amp the microphone so that folks
in the back can can hear what's said
um David and I are are here kind of to
stand up and representing Pantheon but I
think everyone else in here is
representing they're representing
themselves and to the extent they feel
comfortable they can represent their
organizations because this is a it's a
very complex topic it plays into what do
we want to what do we want where do we
draw various lines how hard do we draw
them like what um what levels of
Association cause you to cross a line or
not and we just want to hear other
people's perspectives and have a
conversation about it as a community so
would anybody want to come up and say
anything or we're also happy to answer
questions if people have it but it's we
want to host a conversation

thank you
let me just yes
[Music]
I feel like I'm about to drop a
bombshell since it's new and it's like
new moral space for everyone but what
are your thoughts on generative AI
things like taking away jobs or who owns
the rights to art
that's a interesting question
um
[Music]
I think
that
there are
definitely moral quandaries with
people building technology off of other
people's work and then you know using it
to replace the need to do that work it's
also it's a challenge with openness
right so like you release things out
into the public you don't restrict how
they're going to be used because again
Freedom you know Etc and then people
will you know Hoover up all that
information and turn it into something
that maybe puts you out of a job like
that's a I don't I don't know that it's
it's actually that Stark and dire uh now
but it's certainly an issue it's it's a
really hard one to figure out how to how
to resolve you kind of have to think
about you know
um I've seen people talk about maybe we
shouldn't be using like the GPL or the
MIT license maybe we do need new
licenses that restrict uh use for uh AI
or or people want to put out licenses
that require uh certain
um uh standards for for people to use a
technology that's Uncharted Territory
and I think it'd be interesting to see
some folks try to do and see how well
how well it works but I think in in the
world of of the sort of the AI hype
cycle we're going to probably go through
a few more ups and downs before we
figure out anything that is is
sustainable
yeah
you can use a Podium mic or
[Music]
so I know you all have arrived here with
the best of intentions
um trying to do the right thing
um but you have arrived here now
where a hate group is able to platform
on Pantheon and not be deemed in
violation of your terms of service
um I got a call from your CEO when I
raised objections that uh
that this is not going to change they're
going to stand firm with this policy
um
is there any room for discussion change
reevaluation
thanks Paul
um so uh let's
talk about that
um
the the there's two things I would
respond there I want to respond directly
to the question that you asked and I
want to respond to the idea of
platforming
um because I uh again you don't have to
agree but there's it's a there's Nuance
in the concept of platforming that is
important then it informs our thinking
about this so I'm going to answer that
first and then I'll get to your question
your direct question
so we the word platform is super
overloaded right people use it to mean a
whole lot of different things
um I would can we get some people to
come forward a little bit because if
there are people in the hall there's
like a couple seats up here

yeah
there's somebody take those chairs
and you know if people are comfortable
there's chairs up here if you want to
sit sit up in the front
you're welcome to them

a more practical David you're right they
don't want to have to sit at the table

come on down
[Music]

let's hold one okay fair enough

um so the I want to be clear that the
the conversation we want to host is is a
is a is a larger one than this specific
issue that the Paul's referencing but
I'm happy to give you a summary of
uh the the Catalyst for this
conversation if you will
um can everybody hear me is that okay
I can try to I'll I can get more mic'd
up
um actually it'll be easier for me if
I'm not
couch
so
uh for for people who are
um you know just joining the
conversation uh uh now the specific
impetus for hosting this discussion is
that uh uh Pantheon has our policy of
being open and letting people use our
platform without any kind of screening
or
um you know prior uh filtering whether
that's directly coming onto the platform
themselves or being brought To Us by an
agency and one of the customers that
came to Pantheon actually about four
years ago brought by a small digital
agency that works with non-profits most
of their customers are these Anodyne
like local let's make the food in our
Public Schools better type of uh groups
but they also have as one of their
customers who knows why a national uh
right-wing legal advocacy organization
called Americans defending freedom is
that right I think Alliance for
defending freedom and this is a a an
organization that was founded in the
1980s it comes out of the the no it was
in the 80s it was I think it was 90s
my wikipedias might be slipping in the
80s or 90s comes from the um
Conservative Christian uh you know
activist politics so the folks on the
family James Dobson they were involved
in the in the founding of it it's got
some billionaires who keep it you know
pumped full of money employs lots of
lawyers from Ivy League colleges to go
out and argue find cases that they can
argue you know and try to run up to the
Supreme Court to build precedent and
also they've gotten into creating
legislation to try to push through State
legislatures and you know their their
hit list goes back quite a ways like
they were kind of like whatever's uh the
topic du jour in in right-wing politics
tends to be what they focus on so
recently it's been Reproductive Rights
um the the right to gender affirming uh
health care and you know in the past and
you know trying to roll back gay
marriage
um in the past they've also worked a lot
on like religious freedom issues which
you know bleeds into only one religion
is really the one that you're allowed to
have so this group was uh their uh

adflegal.org I think is the domain name
was was brought to Pantheon about four
years ago
um you know as a self-service customer
they do have an annual contract with
Pantheon now because they wanted to save
some money by doing an annual commitment
um and
this became known uh Greg Dunlap posted

about this on LinkedIn and you know
people were really surprised I think
shocked felt like what the heck uh how
could you do that be doing this Pantheon
this this seems very contrary to the the
values that you you represent and so I I
do want to get back to your question
Paul
um but I think this is probably good to
summarize and so you know we
part of the conversation here is what do
we do when the users of our technology
the users of our services the users of
our platform don't do have this like
strong conflict with the values that we
authentically hold and how do you how do
you respond to that and then different
people have different ways that they'll
respond to that that challenge and so
again we're here to talk about we can
talk more about our point of view but I
want to hear also if people want to
share other points of view as well so
Paul asked a question about you know uh
it feels really out of character and
wrong for us to to platform this group
and would we ever reconsider this
decision so I wanted to respond first to
the the use of the term platform uh
which is I think nuanced right uh
platform's a super overloaded word right
there's platform the company there's
platform the technology thing there's
platform the way that you mean it in the
context of speech and
a speech platform is a place where you
can create reach and or legitimacy right
a speech platform is being this is a
speech platform like I'm an official
person standing behind a podium in a
room where I was able to draw an
audience like putting putting someone on
your conference schedule is platforming
them uh social media sites are speech
platforms because they allow you to pay
money to buy an audience and the whole
purpose of the system is to drive
attention to things
um the open web in and of itself is not
much of a speech platform because it
does not provide any legitimacy anybody
can buy a domain name it does not
provide reach no one's going to visit
your website
if you build it they don't necessarily
come you have to do all these other
things to actually create reach so our
perspective because I I do think I think
Proprietors of speech platforms do have
responsibilities for how they're used
but my perspective is that Pantheon as
an underlying piece of infrastructure is
not much of a speech platform at all
right that the actual people build
things that you could consider speech
platforms on top of us but our service
is is more of a raw material
um so just just wanted to say that and I
I just wanted to add that
um we we also looked into what are the
actual implications of this more than
just being a distinction one of the
differences is that most extremist
activity on the Internet is correlated
with the reach side of this issue in the
sense that
um the internet before the Advent of
major social media platforms and other
things that would promulgate speech and
and algorithmically bubble it up whether
we're talking about search engines us
social media organizations really even
some of the most modern news media that
is what the correlation and even causal
effects seem to be related to for the uh
for the expansion of extremism on the
internet and that's the primary thing
that we have to be concerned about in a
sense because that's that's ultimately
what we're talking about right like
um it's it's not about some
philosophical Distinction on minutia but
like what the actual implications of the
choices are
yeah and against right right the the the
the they're related the the philosophy
there's the philosophical distinctions
are based on the fact that different
things work differently and have
different effects and so Paul's question
is will we re-revisit uh this uh this
this uh decision
what the way we operate when these
questions come up we don't I mean it's
not like a a hugely mature process we do
have a process so you know someone will
make a complaint
um and uh it goes into our abuse inbox
like like most platforms we run an abuse
at you know provider dot IO in this case
and uh and of most of the things that go
into that we can handle pro forma
because it's like oh it's a copyright
violation claim oh it's this person
sending spam oh this site appears to
have been compromised and it's sending
malware like those are things that the
team can just verify and take action on
immediately when someone says oh this is
a hate group you should take them off
your platform that's not something that
the the team that handles the routine
abuse complaints is is prepared to
respond to so they escalate that we got
together Founders
um and our general counsel uh and
eventually engaged the whole executive
team and talking this through and we
reviewed the complaint which included a
helpful link to the splc's website where
they kind of went over all this stuff we
researched the organization a little bit
we dug into some of the history of the
how they got classified how they did and
you know looked over their website
obviously to see if there was anything
like that had that like oh my gosh this
page on the website is is doing specific
damage
um and what we found was there wasn't
content on the website that we could
reasonably say hey if we pulled this
what this content off the internet it
would it would prevent harm from
happening and the the group itself well
odious in my opinion is doing
lawful Democrat they're they're used
doing lawful political activism and
trying to use the Democratic process to
advance their agenda and the fact that I
deeply disagree with their agenda
doesn't mean that we are going to kick
them off our platform
um and so the
policy that we exercise to go through
all that internally just for the sake of
being able to give some sense of like
conclusion and finality and closure like
the the policy document says these
decisions are final and so I I don't
know that we'll there's a world where
we'll revisit this specific decision
because it can kind of just go on and on
and on forever
um
the the broader position right of how we
think about our responsibility as a as a
open web provider like as an open
platform in a divided world it's not the
easy route to take uh and so I will say
that we're conversations about what we
should be doing and how we should be
doing are definitely ongoing and we we
talked about this stuff not every day
not every week but like you know once a
month on average I would say
um and I think we want to
um
so I I what I would I don't want to like
promise something that we're not going
to deliver on right I I don't think that
we're gonna reverse course on this
specific decision because we're not
ready to change our overall stance that
we've had for the last 12 years and you
know that that's something that we would
need to you know there would be a lot
more thought and uh and we'd have to be
really confident that we were moving to
something that uh helped us you know
feel good about the decisions we were
making and was very consistent and was
very transparent and was as objective as
possible and that the challenge that's
moving into inserting kind of a
values-based screen for who we serve is
it then it all comes down to like well
who's making those judgments and how are
they being made and you know the further
you walk away from you know really clear
uh uh lines but that permit an awful lot
of things to happen the more murky that
process gets and we've seen people
you know get lost in the sauce
with that and that's something that I
don't think helps when you end up
so I'll just speak for myself personally
this is not the pantheon position but as
someone who has a background in
professional Progressive politics and
really doesn't want this agenda to win
getting kind of swirling around these
questions of like who's allowed to use
what technology when expends an enormous
amount of energy that doesn't help
defeat these people and so I personally
want to
for myself try to I don't I don't
actually think of like my company as the
mechanism I use to advance my political
agenda it's like a very limited vessel
for doing that I'd prefer to actually do
things I think are be more likely to
have that kind of impact in the world
and and make the change that we would
like to see so so it's a long way around
of saying no on this specific thing but
more broadly like we'd like there to be
a better approach to this we'd like
there to be a you know a better internet
but we don't actually know what that is
right now so we can't we can't change to
something that has that kind of
uncertainty around it
yeah you want to come up

thank you
thank you
so to me
I get that there's multiple aspects to
platforming but you are fundamentally a
web supporting platform that they are
hosting on
and to me you have the terms of
agreement 1.4 restrictions except as
this expressly authorized person to
disagreement subscriber and each end
user may not and may not permit others
to blah blah blah and we go down to item
m
use the service to post any false income
uh no that's L sorry users to post any
false inaccurate or incomplete material
and then also
item n
use the service in any fortunate abusive
or otherwise illegal weight and
violation of this agreement
on the current ADF website
they state
in this Society uh
second find the exact line

they state that a marriage is defined as
the emotional Union of one or man and
one woman which is obviously
both a a lie and B abusive
and I feel that you have strong reason
to terminate them based on those terms
of service thank you

thank you
so first of all thank you uh for for
speaking
um and
um
I appreciate that perspective and I
understand where you're coming from
um you know our we
respectfully disagree sorry I was to say
we certainly have the right
um we again I want to be clear I'm not
trying to do a cop-out thing we're like
oh we can't we have no other options we
have to do this because the open web
like the the terms of service do give us
broad latitude uh to act in in these in
other circumstances and and there's a
different world we could say hey guess
what
um Josh and and David are going to like
review every customer on Pantheon and
kick off any that we think are are not
great but we choose not to operate that
way
um and you can just you're you're I
understand that that's a disappointing
choice for many of you
um but it is a choice that we're making
on our side and so that's why we wanted
to you know be direct and transparent
about that so that we can be accountable
for that choice
uh I was just going to dig a little more
into the question of platform
um in the sense that there's
um
um I I just want to see a show of hands
in this room for how many people in this
room believe in net neutrality
okay so an overwhelming majority of
people here believe in some restriction
on some level of Provider on the
internet being unable to wield
um restrictive policies around content
the data that's transferred
um the information that they are
handling and distributing there's a
spectrum from the concept of network and
infrastructure organizations all the way
up to the organizations that we were
talking about in terms of providing
reach
um and we believe that in reach is where
the much of the damage occurs like we're
not linking anyone to this site uh we're
not uh we're not partnering on with them
on any promotions we're not Google
sending them search search results or
search traffic we're not advertising
um for them we're not algorithmically
promoting their content
um so we fall somewhere on this spectrum
but between a network provider and some
an organization that is actively
promoting the content Distributing the
content and there's a I think there's a
meaningful distinction there especially
with regard to what harm gets created
um we we certainly don't police the
platform to the degree that like every
false statement on the platform is
getting reviewed
um the it would be intractable uh and in
fact it would be worse than intractable
it would get abused as a process because
what's happening today on Reddit and
Facebook with their own moderation
processes is that they are getting
weaponized against marginalized
communities by filing reports against
content it's often trans people who are
the victims of this on Facebook where
their content gets reported it goes to
moderation cues as you scale up a
moderation process and have more
expansive and complex sets of criteria
for how to evaluate it mistakes get made
and over time as you iterate the process
especially with people who are acting in
bad faith you ultimately find
marginalized people in organizations at
the receiving end of bands and
suspensions and other disruptions to
their service and since we certainly
can't have the founders review every
single request at scale for sites on the
platform we would necessarily have to
hand the content moderation process to a
system and infrastructure that would be
much more vulnerable to that sort of
mechanism
thank you

so I worked for a non-profit
organization called Facing History in
ourselves
we use lessons of History to challenge
teachers and their students to stand up
to bigotry and Hate
I don't see that we can spend our donors
money hosting with Pantheon
sorry I'm nervous a lot of people here
yeah should have got a bigger room
if you want to counteract what you're
doing give my organization and other
organizations like mine that are
standing up
free Saints

[Applause]

thank you for speaking and that's a
great suggestion that's a something for
us to think about for sure
like in the in the world of doing things
that will have more impact like I think
that's a great and uh obvious thing that
Pantheon could could be doing

foreign

I mean first of all like Josh said like
we do not agree like morally with these
guys
there's a lot of Bad Bad actors
um
and you know they're in a tough
situation but I wanted to reiterate a
point you made earlier because I was
thinking exactly the same thing
um and it's about energy right and if
you want to like Drive change
and improve like our lives
it takes policy takes laws
you know there's like
we that's not currently happening in a
lot of places and so we're driving our
energy kind of towards like one you guys
but we're not talking about like how can
we actually improve
the world you know like like I'm from
Florida I've got like there's there's
bad like it's not great out there and
I I just there's not
you know there is activism in the world
but
um I also just wanted to point out like
we're all making Drupal
and drupal's used by a lot worse people
than these guys
like I've stumbled across
apparently like terrorist groups using
Drupal many years ago
um
so it's very tricky because we're all
contributing to that you know we're all
concerning patches to this this
organization's website
uh
so yeah I mean that's the thing like I
don't think
telling forcing a company or I mean
first of all let's go to Acme if we can
get the list of all the things sites
they don't shouldn't have up and we just
don't know what's going on you know so
it's not just this one group there's
probably another one on your site that
we don't know about
but attacking like going after them
isn't really gonna change it much at all
and I think it's kind of like boycotts
you know like we're going outside and
shooting our Budweiser cans
like after we buy them
um but I like like he says like he this
guy comes from politics like Drupal came
from politics like Progressive politics
2004 took over
and uh I just think we really should put
our energy towards like actual policy
actual laws and not only that hate
speech has stronger laws in other
countries
right so if they're really putting
something on their website that's
encouraging violence in danger we should
absolutely have a mechanism to take that
down
right and I thought of the dcma
do you whatever uh if you put an MP3 on
your site
that like some musician owns you can
file a complaint and they'll take it
down they have to take it down
right so I just I feel like
targeting stuff like that would just was
going to help more people than just like
kicking these guys off because guess
what they'll just put the site back up
again somewhere else
and they'll have exactly the same breach
that they already had
so I mean I'm not I feel bad but I also
of course they suck this is very
emotional issue and like I'm shaking
even talking because like yeah people
are really being hurt out there and it's
not because that site is on them that's
like we'll live on no matter what until
we change the laws
right and can point out the problematic
content take it down
and I don't know that's just what I what
I was thinking about it dcma dcma for
hate speech
let's do that thanks
um
yeah and again for everyone who's who
wants to speak like take a beat take a
breath it's it's a very full room and
it's a very charged topic so um I
appreciate that and um
I I also I mean obviously that that's
more in line with our thinking but I
also really recognize why people want us
to to do something here even as a
gesture of solidarity with people that
are you know in in extreme distress
right that I I I I recognize the
validity of that ask and as an
individual I want to demonstrate my
solidarity I just there's limits to what
we can do as a company in that regard
and I also understand that the the the
the desire the frustration with the
political process and the Democratic
process is part of what drives people to
really want to do this stuff so I saw
that hand first but then you
[Music]
we got about like 15 minutes left

they can't go too far okay right here so
I appreciate that you are placing
yourself more in the infrastructure than
the content delivered like
direct service actively working with
such odious customers however there is a

difference between throwing up your
hands and saying we can't do anything
because it's going to be a quagmire and
act taking an active supportive stance
of their broader community and one way
that could be done is to just say okay
we won't take you off your pla our
platform however any funds that come to
us from your payments are going to go
right back into the causes that you are
actively working against that we do
support and are adhering to our policies
so that could be an alternative active
that you could take
and I've been really disappointed not
hearing anything along those lines and
just uh we can't do anything there are
other options and I encourage you to
shift into supporting
those working against these folks thanks
yeah
yeah that's a really good point so so
two things I would say
um I'm gonna respond directly to the the
suggestion because it's a good one but
also about like you haven't heard much
it's I meant to say this at the very
beginning in my intro of like Hey we're
all here in this room it's a full room
there's a lot of energy
um
I also understand that like people
haven't heard much from Pantheon about
this you know we've had one-on-one
conversations with a lot of folks but we
haven't like communicated broadly and
publicly about it and the the reason for
that is that uh in the The Contours of
Internet discourse this is just like a
really hard conversation to have
productively if we're doing it in social
media threads and so forth and so that's
why I really appreciate people coming
you know into the room where I think we
can be more human together and you know
have a a charged and difficult but
hopefully meaningful conversation
um as humans so again that's just you
know recognizing that this is this is uh
tricky for folks and so that's why we
haven't like oh Pantheon's going to do
this or oh let's clarify our stance on
that because it you know it's sort of
like trying to do that communication in
the depersonalized realm of the internet
is It's just tough uh we have to do more
there and we will in the in the future
um because I think we do need to spend
like one of the things and I I will get
back to your suggestion I promise one of
the things that in retrospect I think we
did that was totally a mistake was we
didn't talk about this type of challenge
in the past like there were many
opportunities because these kinds of
issues flare up with across different
providers with some regularity there are
many opportunities for us to have a
conversation proactively about our
perspective and the fact that we do have
like customers that we disagree with
deeply on our platform and and so there
wouldn't be the sense of shock
um and and confusion and and so forth
that you know would would not make
things
um uh uh
it would not it would I think it would
have helped if if we had been clearer
about our perspective on this earlier so
people at least understood where we were
coming from so to your question of like
how can we like do turn around and do
some material good and one of you know
one of the ways to do that would be to
you know redirect the funds from this
organization to good causes like it's
similar to like let's give free hosting
to
um to good causes
um yeah I think that's that's something
we're talking about a lot internally we
like there's some issues which is like
again
for anybody who who we didn't say this
before this is not a financial decision
right this was not a decision we made
because like oh gosh we need this
customer like again they came to us on a
credit card and they got it then now
that I have an annual commit discount
right they're not a high dollar uh value
customer
um so we're we're like frankly if we
were going to try to like really invest
in doing some good in the world we would
want to uh direct more than just their
fees towards that
um and uh and I think the question for
us uh as we've talked about that
internally feels like a good idea
don't want it to feel like like a like
buying a carbon credit sort of thing
which because that feels a little icky
but but the idea of hey look we gotta we
should put our our money where our mouth
is how do we pick organizations to
support how do we do more than just give
money we'd like to like give to start to
organize you know volunteering and other
things that really help Engage The our
company and like the company values and
all of the people on team Pantheon who
who also share these values to really
you know put put effort in and like
actually do some good work uh so I I
really appreciate the suggestion it's
good to hear that there's some support
for that in the room and you know I I'm
not I'm we're not going to say we have a
plan here today because in all honesty
we don't but I think something like that
is a really good idea and we we
definitely will try to figure out a way
to to do some material positive good
um I know you know you raise your hand
but this gentleman over here was also
first
[Music]

good morning everybody
um
I I've heard what you've said about
the the liberty and the way you could
use the platform and that resonates
but how do you guys equate that to the
decision to the platform of remove every
website from Russia
when when that came along right because
it seems like it's conflicting uh to
your stance now and in my personal
opinion it seems like it you know I
would venture to Guess that most people
would support that decision so it's an
easy decision right the Russian decision
is an easy decision right it's it's a
stance that was taken by most
corporations it was a stance that was
taken by a lot of people so so it was an
easy decision this isn't an easy
decision so
um it just doesn't seem to me personally
that what you're saying applies to that
and so if like we did it once why can't
we kind of do it again type of feeling
but um I don't know it's just my thought
process yeah

so there there are definitely a few
distinctions to be made from uh between
uh the gazprom uh sites and
um the uh the ADF in the sense that um
the it's actually quite a long list
um uh so uh if you'll bear with me
um one is like gasprom actually runs a
private military that's actively
involved in The Invasion uh that so we
are talking about a literal force that
is directly endangering lives
um in in Ukraine right now
um uh they're they're actually dropping
bombs they are sending in um tanks they
are sending in troops and they are
firing weapons at people uh that is a
very high
um direct link to the risk of
involvement with gas prom
um I'll additionally say like we haven't
talked that publicly about some of these
things but um uh we've seen Russia act
as a state actor as uh targeting the
platform with the tax and that also
weighed on the scale in the sense that
as part of their own
um they've been in the process of
deploying basically the equivalent of a
great firewall and we've had contact
with service providers in Russia and
have noticed that they have been trying
to intercept our TLS connections to the
platform and therefore and insert a um
sort of man in the middle attack and be
able to censor the actual traffic
because we also host activist
organizations that are trying to
undermine the regime in Russia and those
have also been victims of or or
attempted victims of denial of service
attacks against their their sites on the
platform so we are talking about a state
actor directly involved in attacks and
Military
and it seems like a very clear case in
in that situation
so um uh I want to be conscious of time
so we have about five minutes left and
there's a lot of people who have their
hands unfortunately I have to uh leave
at to get to another thing for 10 by 10
o'clock so we'll try to get and then you
add your hand and then one more and come
on up one two three just everybody come
up now and you'll have a chance to speak

hi hi my name is holding poon and I am

Deputy chair for Drupal NYC I'm one of
the founding members of Drupal NYC and I
am announcing right now that we just
signed a new contract and moving our
websites for Drupal Camp mic and Drupal
NYC away from Pantheon
sorry please don't shoot the messenger
um we would like to thank Pantheon for
sponsoring Us in the past but until
the issue where the open web ADF has

been resolved we are no longer taking
donations from Pantheon we're no longer
taking sponsorships from Pantheon
that's what I'm about to say
all right
hello I'm Matthew I just wanted to say
thank you for hosting this and I
appreciate the um
the sincerity I also just wonder if you
had you mentioned splc the Southern
povert Poverty Law Center before I
wondered if you have discussed host uh
explicitly saying you will not host
sites that are listed on
organizations that track uh hate groups
uh we we talked about that internally
and I'll just try to be brief because
there's other people want to talk
um we ended up saying we probably don't
want to do that one because it feels
like Outsourcing our judgment to third
party which has a bunch of risks and two
the splc itself is uh an activist
organization and you know that they're
they have made controversial decisions
in the past on how they classify people
and it feels like if we're going to own
these decisions we need to own them but
good suggestion thank you
hello I'm Michelle I come from Europe
I was listening the different discussion
here and something like I didn't get the
topic because in Europe uh often
we turn to the government in order to
find solution to laws and legal business
and here I have the impression that we
stay at the company level trying to to

delegate all those legal basis to the
Enterprise and I was wondering if at one
point the company should not turn to the
government thing
uh our customers have problem with some
values
that are
defined by our other customers
we should have a discussion at the state
level in order to solve the issue and
have the appropriate legal business for
those kind of activities is function has
this kind of
discussion to to try to end
those kind of conflicts conflicting
discussion that happened in the pantheon
universe
so
um I think the so I think I don't think
there's a company position on that to be
honest like but like it's just speaking
for myself like I think one the most
important thing is actually just
defeating this organization the public
sphere through the Democratic process I
think a secondary goal potentially
behind it which is a little bit more
um uh con tricky but probably important
would be to actually have better laws
that would you know govern what you can
and can't do so like you know back
basically being able to use the rule of
law as as the tool versus you know
debates about what speech is or isn't
permitted that are not grounded in the
rules law that would that would be nice
but that's not also what Pantheon's job
is to to to to make happen in the world
like we our mission is to put the magic
of the internet in everyone's hands
um we're not a lobbying organization so
to make sure you have can come up
thank you I am
I first want to acknowledge the very
real risk that is involved when you're
putting yourself out there in the
context of activism
um and thank everybody who is raising
their voice today because it is so
important to know that there are so many
people here who are supporting the
community and our values
and I want to know
um
I want to know if you've considered your
own strategy for handling PR if or
perhaps when the community continues to
call you out on social media and
continues to lean on you to make better
decisions
um that's a great question
um the the short answer is yes right
this is a conversation that is ongoing
internally like how do we manage
relationships with our community with
our partners with our customers
um and
um so certainly We are continuing to to
think about that and uh and again like
some of the suggestions here for things
that the community would like to see
that would be you know received
positively or are good and you know I
think that's all I don't want that to be
like a PR strategy but certainly like
Communications and Optics is a
consideration for that but I don't want
to you know want to do the right thing
for the right reasons I guess if when it
comes down to that but thank you for the
question we are at time so thank you all
for coming I really appreciate everyone
with the courage to speak and everyone
being polite and cordial in the room
um hopefully we have a wonderful day
today at drupalcon and um yeah let's go
out there
okay if this game now if this game down
and uh Silicon Valley company kicked
these guys off their platform their
website would be up it would never go
down and then they would use it because
they're preparing themselves as victims
and they look as under attack so they
would be it would be on Fox News saying
I woke Bob kick their group off the
internet and they have a lot of people
that go on Fox News to talk about stuff
all the time
that's it the ADF in the Colorado cake
baker decision just they handed it to
you on a platter you have the right
according to the ADF themselves to not
do business with people you disagree
with they can yell all they want about
that this is what they pushed for
themselves you can use it if you choose
to make that decision
thank you I I you're correct